The End Of The People Manager?

“People managers won’t have any value in the future.” That line is making the rounds, and we’re not letting it slide by without a real leadership reality check. We dig into Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky’s comments on AI, organizational structure, and the kind of manager he thinks will disappear, then we break down what’s actually useful for leaders outside the Silicon Valley bubble.

We talk about the very real push for efficiency, flatter org charts, and fewer layers of management as AI tools get better and faster. If you’re spending most of your week in recurring one-on-ones, status meetings, or running routines that don’t move the work forward, the pressure is only going to increase. But we also call out what doesn’t work: pretending leadership is just “content” and that human connection can be reduced to a twice-a-year check-in. Teams still need trust, coaching, clarity, and leaders who can guide people through wave after wave of change.

We also share a concrete example of agentic AI in action: tools that can find the right source, download it, clip it, and hand it to you with almost no effort. That’s not a novelty, it’s a preview of how quickly productivity expectations will reset, and why your best protection is becoming a high-leverage leader with real proximity to customers and outcomes.

If you want to future proof your value in the age of AI, listen closely, share this with a colleague, and then tell us what you’re seeing inside your organization. Subscribe, leave a review, and send this episode to someone whose calendar is full but impact feels unclear.

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Transcript

A Viral Claim About Managers

SPEAKER_03 0:00

We wrote about him in the first chapter of our most recent book.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Some controversial statements he made at a closed door meeting. He's back in the news saying this. I don't think people managers will have any value in the future. Did you catch that? What did he say about people managers? I don't think people managers will have any value in the future.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

The founder of Airbnb back in the news. Do we agree or disagree with some of his predictions about what organizations in the future will look like and why this debate is so important for you to be up to date on.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russell. You cannot be serious. Strengthen your ability to lead in less than 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Register for the industry-specific workshops on how to lead teams through change. We're digging in with pharma, manufacturing, healthcare, and three other industries. Register before all 300 seats per session are taken. Go to LoneRock.io.

Why Chesky Keeps Showing Up

Chesky On AI And People Managers

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Like normal, the podcast is a little bit ahead of the rest of our teams. So if you're listening to this podcast within a few days of when this episode comes out, you actually can't register quite yet for these industry-specific webinars that you just heard mention. The registration's going to be going live any day now. So if you listen to this maybe a week or two after the episode comes out, then you're golden. You can register. And here's the idea, you all. Tech, we're going to each one of these industries, and it's going to be a virtual event. And every single organization that we are consulting with or that our leadership training team is interacting with, what do they want to talk about? Yeah, they want to talk about decision making. Yeah, they want to talk about creating clarity and how they need to generate more alignment. They want to talk about decision making, all the things that we work on, but there's nothing that is more consistent right now across every industry, across every leadership team, across every level of the org chart, across every geographic area that leaders and organizations are dealing with. And it is the tidal wave, the wave after wave after wave of change. It's unbelievable. And so we don't train leaders on how to lead through change. And yet we want them just to suck it up. And we want their teams just to adapt faster. And we want to become more nimble and agile and increase speed to market and innovate faster. And yet we don't have leaders who are good at it. And you go to the HR and LD folks, and they have these change management models that they were trained on 20 years ago. They're too complicated, and complexity doesn't scale. And so, yeah, that's brilliant and works well, but I can't teach that to 200 leaders or my sales managers or district leaders or my nurse supervisors or whatever else. And so we're just getting in the trenches with you. And so as a team, we decided, you know what? We're going to go into each one of these individual industries. We're going to limit it because of the licenses we've got with virtual meetings and because it gets out of control after a certain level. Just 300 seats for each industry. It's free. We're not charging anything. It's one hour because who wants to be in a meeting, especially virtually, that's longer than an hour? Nobody. And so one hour. We're doing them in the month of July, but seats are going to fill up way before that. And so just keep looking at lonerock.io. If you're not subscribed to our newsletter, go to our website, subscribe to it. We never spam people. We've got tens of thousands of people. That sucker grows like crazy. The newsletter. Our marketing communications folks are just doing an amazing job on that. They're making sure they're bringing value to it. And if you're registered, if you're getting the newsletter, I think we send it out on Tuesday and Friday. Tuesday, we give you a text-based newsletter. Friday, we give you like a two-minute video clip for you to watch. Super basic. You can watch it on Saturday, Sunday, whatever, while you're waiting on the sideline for your kids' soccer game or whatever is going on. And if you're registered for the newsletter, if you're subscribed, you're going to get the exact date that we open up the registration for the industry-specific leading through change web classes that we're doing. They're going to be fabulous. So you're going to want to register for those at LoneRock.io. Okay. Here is, and by the way, we're still going to all the different cities. Minneapolis, I think, is in late July. I think we're in New Jersey in late July. I think we're coming to Dallas and Atlanta in, I don't know, I think September. No, I think that's August. In those cities, we're just blanketing it out. Those are mainly for the on-site meetings, they are mainly for HR LD leaders. So send your H. If you're in the Minneapolis area, why in the world would you not have your HR or LD person at the hotel ballroom that we're renting out? Like we're going to help them become strategic partners in delivering on the results. Because any department that's a support function, goodbye. You're not going to survive. I'm sorry that the efficiency and where we're going, which is what we're going to talk about, dig into in this episode. You're just not going to survive. So you've got to be strategic partners, bring value. If you do that, you're great. So we're on this mission, on this conquest. We've been to, I think, 12 cities so far this year. We're going to go to like a dozen more. Then we're doing these executive summits where we fly out the head of HR, the head of LD, to the Sundance Mountain Resort. We put them up for a day and a half. We cram them full of incredible content and activities and they network with each other. And every single event I just mentioned, we don't charge one dollar for any of it. I think we're crazy. But we we have this view of we're not going to sell to anybody unless they want to buy from us. Then we'll bring value, and then we're just going to knock your socks off, hopefully, with the content and the facilitation skills and how we're upsize or upgrading your leaders and your front line and all of that. We've got courses that are just for the front line. We've got courses that are just for leaders. Anyway, engage with us. If you're not fine. But we're out in this leadership lab. We're observing and we're just bringing tons of value in our minds, in my mind. And so all these sorts of things you can find out about at LoneRock.io. Okay. Brian Chesky, the founder, CEO of Airbnb, he is such a great source of content for us. We wrote about a speech that Brian gave in a closed door meeting, what, about 18, 24 months ago, somewhere around there, in uh in Silicon Valley, where he introduced this concept called founder mode. Created all kinds of controversy. If you've not read or downloaded, listened to on Spotify, our most recent book, Deliver, that's on you. That sucker is one of our legacy things that we have left behind that I'll be proud of for the rest of my earthly life. Basically a textbook, but not as boring as one on um all around our leader OS framework, how to create clarity, alignment, and movement. We start with Brian Chesky and how we adamantly he's amazing. What he accomplished at Airbnb is phenomenal. But he also, and I give him credit because he gets out in the marketplace and he speaks up and he offers his ideas and he lets you deal with them, right? And I believe that he has some great intentions and that he's incredibly smart, obviously, unbelievably successful. He's proven all of that, but he's lost his mind in some areas. Not that that's overstating. I'm just being a little bit comedic, but he he goes too far, in my belief. That's my belief. Like founder mode, too far. The general principle behind it of how of a leader staying involved in the business, totally on. If you haven't read chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, the first part of our book and deliver why some leaders get results and most don't, then you have no idea what I'm talking about. Go check it out. Um, and those of you that have read it, you've listened to it on Spotify, because Audible is like, for some reason, still anyway, don't get me started. I'm or downloading it to your Kindle or whatever, you know what I'm talking about. Okay, Brian's back in the news because he's talking about I'm gonna go to a clip, like a two, three-minute clip of a podcast interview he did. I never listened to this podcast. It's called Invest Like the Best, not on my radar. Um, but but speaking of AI, AI served this up to me and said, hey Russ, um, you ought to listen to this clip, and it provided for me because the way I've got AI situated for me, it's just bringing me tons of value, and um, I'm I've got it incorporated into all areas of my life. And so it gave me this clip. It actually clipped the section of the podcast it thought I should listen to, and I'm gonna play it for you and have you listen to it. Brian's talking about, he's generally talking about, remember, this is an investor podcast. So he's talking about how AI is changing industry, where he thinks the AI industry is going. Some of you will be super interested in that, others not. So just roll with me as he talks about that a little bit. And then he gets into the meat of it, which is what he thinks is gonna happen to the people manager. And then he gets back a little bit more into AI overall. Just hang with it for 30 seconds while he goes through that. You'll find interest in it. Hopefully, you ought to be up to speed on what these leaders in Silicon Valley are thinking about where AI is headed. And then we're gonna come back and I'm gonna talk to you about whether I think Brian is right or not. And I'm gonna ask you some questions on what you think about what he says. He takes a strong position about the future of people managers in this age of AI. And Brian's not the only one talking about it. There's lots of other leaders that are talking about it. And some of them I think are have lost their mind, like they're a little crazy. They've gone a little they're going a little too far, and I'll tell you why I think they're doing it. Because I think there's something specific that's motivating them for going a little too far and and and and in what they're saying. But there is, well, I'm just gonna play it. So here's Brian Chesky. I'll put a link, we'll have the team put a link to the full um podcast interview. This is the only part where he talks about people managers and structure of organizations and all of that. But if you want to hear more about them, uh we'll put a link to the uh full podcast interview so we give them credit. But here's uh maybe uh how long is it? A minute, two minutes, of Brian Chesky talking about the impact of AI on organizations and what he calls the people manager.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I think every single person in this company's job will change. I don't know how. I've not wanted to make any rash changes. What I'm mainly doing now is trying to get people to adopt AI tools. And I want to see how everyone's job changes in the world of AI tooling. And then I want to basically embark on like a fundamental redesign. I don't think people managers will have any value in the future. When I mean people managers, people that only manage people. I think everyone's gonna have to be a hybrid people manager or manager I see. Meaning they have to have contact with reality in some sense. It has to be a thing a customer ends up seeing or touching. An engineer recall, they have to be technical. In other words, every engineer needs a code. Even the managers need a code. Whatever the version of that is for your field, you need a code. So if you're a lawyer, you're just not managing people, you have to actually read the case law and you have to get involved. And that makes sense, right? You can't just be these managers where you're kind of people's therapists and you're just doing meetings, you're doing one-on-ones. Like people who have lots of recurring one-on-ones are not gonna survive. Because what they're doing is like that, oh, you come with me with whatever your problem is, I'm here to help you, like a mentor or professor. That kind of leadership style is not gonna work. You need to have context. And I think a lot of people will survive this age of AI. The two types of people that will not survive the age of AI are two types of people: pure people managers who think it's all about just leadership. No, it's about content and leadership. I hear about design leaders that like the heads of design, they don't actually manage the design. Johnny Ive manages the design. He designs and he leads people. A design leader who only manages the people, that's crazy to me. The way Frank Lloyd managed his design team is through the work. I say you manage people through the work. You don't manage the people, you manage the work. Otherwise, what are you doing? I mean, yeah, like maybe a couple times a year you should have like a check-in, have a heart-to-heart, ask about their family, build relationships. You should do that. You should have relationships. That's not a day-to-day thing. You're not their therapist. You're managing people through the work. So the two types of people will not make the shift to AI are pure people managers and people that are rigid and don't want to change and evolve. As long as you're like got a growth mindset, I think the tools are gonna be very easy. There's an economic setup for the tools to be so easy, everyone can figure them out. So I don't think the AI tools are gonna be complicated right now. There's a lot of command line. I think ClaudBot and Cowork are not the most intuitive to an average person, but I think economic incentives will be for this to become incredibly intuitive. And I think AI is really an enterprise thing right now. If you take out ChatGBT, people screwing around with image generation, it's pretty much just an enterprise phenomenon. I'm on the board of Y Commodity, 175 companies last batch, 159 were enterprise. There are no consumer companies. Because there's no consumer companies, the incentive to make the interfaces really simple is not there because it's their job to figure out the interface. The next wave of AI is gonna be consumer AI. Consumer AI is going to be the big prize. Can you think of a consumer AI company? You know, maybe open AI, but most of their energy is now going to codex. Google, yeah, with Gemini, but most of it's still going to search. They don't want to cannibalize your business. So I think that's where it's all going to go. And I'm trying to start thinking about AI as a consumer play. And how do we make tools so simple that everyone here can figure out to use them?

How To Filter Big Predictions

Task Focus Versus Human Leadership

Agentic AI And The Efficiency Shock

Questions To Future Proof Your Value

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Okay, there is there is so much there that we need to dissect. So the last minute, let's just start with what he said at the end and then we're gonna go back. Um, because some things he said were I thought outlandish, like like crazy talk. And other things I think were incredibly relevant and have a ton of basis in fact and reality across industry. Now, you gotta understand, Brian, and and and this is what I always think is so interesting about these leaders. Like they'll write a book. You get these leaders of a particular company or a particular industry that will write books and they're bestsellers whenever I'm thinking, that's like that's awesome. Like I want to read that, I want to listen to it because it it shares the experience. But that's one person, typically in one company, and what they've experienced. Okay. So some of that is applicable to all of us, but a lot of it's only applicable to you. Brian Chesky has only he has only been an executive at Airbnb, period. And yet he speaks like this is exactly what's gonna happen across all organizations, and this is what's gonna happen with people managed. How do you know? Like, okay, he's networking with other people in his industry in tech in Silicon Valley, but there's like, is he in these Fortune 50 companies that have enormous employee populations and are in re restaurant chains or in manufacturing companies, or is he in a hospital system in the Midwest, or is he downworking with folks that are building planes or or fighter jets or submarines in Florida? And does he know what that what insurance companies and in in um the Northeast are dealing with, or the financial industry in Charlotte or New York? Like, no. Okay, so I appreciate the perspective, but maybe a little bit less certainty. You with me? And so um so the last minute uh that he talked about, he talked about um AI going consumer. I think that's interesting from that standpoint um to just think about I'm an AI geek, so the rest of some of you may not find any interesty interest in that. I'm not sure he's totally correct that the future is AI for consumers. He might be, but obviously he has a financial interest in talking about that, right? And you always have to think about when you listen to any of these interviews, I don't think enough of you do this. Enough people in society do this. What is the economic incentive for the person who is speaking to the media representative? So, like, even in political talk, there are some people that are totally tied up in conspiracy theories right now. Well, what's the economic incentive for them? It gets them a million more listens. It keeps them on the top of the listen list in Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Do they believe half the crap they're talking about? No way possible. But they're they're playing a role. They're an actor on a stage in a film. So the camera comes on, the mic comes on, and they play a role. And then you get people that are groupies and minions listening, they think that everything they're saying is true. They're playing you, just like politicians. The same is true with executives and and and all of us. We have self-interest. And so Brian's making a certain case, and he's going and saying this is the where the future's gonna go or whatever. And he's got a lot writing on that. So I just need to process it with that, and then I apply the appropriate filter and then do what I need to do with it, right? We're an educated listener or media consumer. Okay, so uh that's not what I really wanted to talk about with concern of what Brian said. Let's go through a couple of the other things that he said. Um, he talked about uh can you tell Brian is a task manager in our lead in 30, the way we used to, and kind of lead in 30 um our basic foundational leadership content and course. We talk about the first and second leader. The second leader's the taskmaster, we call him the general, very task-oriented. In the book, we call um that to be founder mode. In our book, Deliver, we call that founder mode, which Brian himself came up with, and we give him all kinds of credit and told the story of behind the scenes, a closed door meeting that we got the uh inside information about and felt comfortable sharing. And so um this task-oriented leader, Brian's talking about it like absolutely cracks me up. He literally said, Did you catch that in the clip? He said, twice a year you might want to ask about the life of your employee. Twice a year. Like, oh my gosh. You might want to ask and like talk about what's going on in their life twice. Are you nuts? Like, I'm I I'm as task-oriented as most people. I am very driven by outcomes and results. If you ask me about what's going on in my life, I've had significant stuff going on in my life lately, with you know, I'll talk about it more in a future episode when I'm emotionally um able to, my mom, and some of the stuff that's happened in my personal life that I'm not ready to talk about because I'm so raw about it. And if you were a coworker of mine and you to ask me about that six months from now or twice a year, checking a box, no, that's not who's gonna survive. That might work in your company and in certain industries, but that's not what works with humans. I'm sorry, totally, absolutely, fundamentally, completely reject what he said. Now, am I gonna ask you about your life every single day? Am I gonna dig in? Am I do I want to be your therapist? No, I agree with what he said there. So the principle, I think, of what he's trying to get at, which is I would have said it totally differently. Here's how I would have said it if you're not involved in the work, if you don't have proximity to the customer, if you are not actively bringing value in our ability to increase speed to market, in our ability to offer solutions to the customer, in our ability to innovate as an organization, if you're not actively in the work and you are sitting in an office at home, by the way, virtually, or in the office or in the hospital or in the factory, whatever, and you're just kind of dealing with the top-line issues and not really digging in. I totally agree with what Brian said. Your value is going to be limited because there is a massive push for efficiency in organizations, more than ever. I totally believe that. I've studied this. I'm like a geek about this, studying the history of organizations, the firm. We wrote about it at length. The whole first part of our book, The Great Resignation, which we wrote when the pandemic hit, was all about these trends and the size of the firm and this and the power of the individual. This is something that I have studied from the days of Edison and Ford. We wrote about that at the end of the book Deliver. If you made it all the way to the last few chapters, they were actually like my favorite chapters to be involved in writing, to study. I went to, I drove to these places, flew to them as we were writing that book to study. I'm I geek out about how organizations and individuals and teams and executives, what that's looked like through the industrial age, the information age, now the AI age. And so do I agree with him? Yes, there's this push for efficiency. Organizations are going to flatten. You're going to get a layer or two that are going to be removed. They're going to be more horizontally based than vertically based. This is something that you all, if you're in some kind of executive level, you ought to hire us. You ought to reach out to me, our team. We ought to be doing an hour of an executive offsite for your C suite team. We ought to take two hours at your leadership forum. Where you've got all 2,000 leaders or 400 or whatever, and talk about this horizontal push rather than a vertical push in organizations and what that looks like in day-to-day leadership. Brian's totally right in what he's talking about as far as the pull or the push or the pressure on organizations. But no, you can't be totally machine focused. Are you nuts? The humans who are going to thrive in the age of AI, there's no question about it. The data already shows it. And yes, as it becomes more pronounced and AI gets more into, and we've got agentic workforces where agents, meaning computers, are working right alongside the humans. The humans that survive are the ones that are close, have proximity to the customer, are coming up with innovative ideas, and they are great at network fluency. We talked about this in the leadership reality report, which you can still get free at our website, lonerock.io. Just go there, it will pop up, and you can download it. And it talks about these forces that are at play. So I agree with Brian that support functions, we've been drilling this message for over a year now because we've just seen the writing on the wall. If you are a support function or you are at a level of the organization where you're basically viewed as just kind of leading people, but you're not really in the weeds, you're not really helping us move forward, unless you're at a fortune, let's call it Fortune 50, Fortune 10 company, where that's your role as a senior executive. It's a public-facing role, and you're not really paid to be in the weeds, those are the exception. For the rest of the 99.9% of us, um, where it's it's an organization that might be smaller. Maybe instead of 2 million employees, it's got 100,000, or maybe even smaller than that, 50,000 to 10,000, and definitely smaller than that, you've got to be, as a senior executive or any level of the org chart, you've got to have more proximity to the customer and really involved in the work than you were five years ago. There's no question. Brian's right about that. So the people managers that are in support functions or aren't bringing a lot of value and moving us forward, we talk about it under the category of movement. Those of you that have dug into our courses or that use us as a consulting firm with your executive teams, you know how we dig into this under that Clarity Alignment movement, the leader OS, the leader operating system framework. Movement is all about high-leverage activities, which demands high-leverage activities demand proximity to the customer and actually your hands in it. If you aren't returning high ROI work, you're contributing noise and involved in a lot of LLAs, low leverage activities. Yeah, I totally agree with Brian. Your days are numbered. Like you ought to be nervous. You ought to be, and and and a lot of those folks, uh, well, I'm not gonna say that. So, so you yeah, so I agree with them there. So the the the point of playing this is just to get you to think about it. I'm reacting to some of what he said. I want you to be thinking about it too. So here are a few questions. How do you see your industry or organization already changing because of technology, AI, and what's happening? Many of you are gonna say, not at all. It's not happening. Like there's a lot of noise, but not a lot of they are there, you know? Okay. And and you would be the minority right now. Um, and then others like, well, I think it's happening over in like our tools. We're leaning into um, you know, cowork, or we're leaning into um the what's the Microsoft tool, the AI, um, I forget it right now. Um, let me just click here and go here and wherever, and I'm not seeing it. Anyway, um, Microsoft's behind on all this stuff. It's it's not even um that great. But um, but these other tools are really important. And so maybe that's the extent of what you're seeing is just we're using co-work, we're using code, we're using some of these uh support functions that are out there. Okay, well, that's minimal. What you're gonna see in the coming weeks and months and years, it's not even gonna take years, is the the agentic ability for your organization to just efficiency. And it you let me just give you a quick example. This will be interesting, I think, to some of you. So the clip that I played from Brian Chesky, let me give you how that used to work. So I would have to, in getting ready to do a podcast episode, I would have to go research, okay, well, is there anything on YouTube or anything in certain podcasts that have been talked about as it as it relates to how AI is affecting the structure of organizations? And I'd have to dig and watch videos and listen to different podcasts and scroll through those. And we're talking you all about a lot of work. And then I'd have to download the audio for that episode. Then I'd have to edit it and get it to the exact point, then bring it into whatever, or our team would have to do this right and do all these sorts of things. That would take lots of time. Now, do you know what just happened for that Brian Chesky? I got a notification that said, hey, here's something you ought to consider in one of your upcoming podcast episodes. Because Claude, the tool we use in our company, Claude Cowork, knew it knows all about my podcast, it knows how I do it, it's listened. Claude has listened to every one of the 409 or 410, however many it's been, episodes. It knows my voice, it knows what I'm interested in, it studied it. And so it said, hey, I think you might be interested in this clip from Brian Chesky. Okay, um, give it to me. So it went, it found the episode, it then downloaded the audio, it clipped it to the section you just heard. I didn't edit it. Our team didn't edit it. Said, Rush, you need to listen to this. I clicked on it. Hey, that's really interesting. Boom, done. That's agents. Those are all agentic agents going to work. I'm not typing into Chat GPT, what um vitamin should I take because I've got indigestion. Not that, right? That's the old AI and it's still valuable and recipes and all that kind of stuff. But this is agentic, uh, this is agents that get to know you and you're utilizing them, you're deploying them to help you do work. And there's a million that we're not a million, but there are several that we're using in our organization that are having significant impact on our efficiency, productivity, strategic decisions, all of that. And so, yes, that's gonna affect organizations. And the people that are producing work at a slower pace or low leverage activities are gonna get left in the dust because the efficiency that's available now is insane. And so I agree with Brian. And so I want you thinking about where is your organization at? Another question I would ask is what do you think your unique value is? Where are you bringing unique value? Next question: how are you adjusting what you do, where you spend time, your habits and routines and systems individually as a team, as an organization, in order to make you move faster, in order to make you more efficient, in order to position you and your team and your business area or whatever it might be, functional area, as more valuable to the organization. If you're doing all of that, you'll do great. You're gonna thrive. The future is gonna be brighter than the past. You can expect to make more money, you can expect to be more productive, you can expect to have more um free time, quite honestly, you can expect all these sorts of things. If you're not doing all those things I just talked about, and you're in a support function, or you are just kind of maintaining, doing the work, involved in a lot of low leverage activity, you are, and this is where I think Brian was trying to get to. If you're kind of touchy-feely and you're just he just said it bad, in my view. Um, if if you're out there and you're just kind of meeting with people and you're just kind of running routines and producing schedules or doing whatever, and you're not really focused on the work or actively moving it forward more than ever, yeah. You aren't gonna do well in six months, twelve months, eighteen months, what whatever it is. And it depends on what organization you work at, what industry you're in, and how fast those expectations are changing. And some of the companies that we work with on the consulting side, they're already there. Like it there are massive changes happening. And other companies that we consult, they're kind of dipping their toe in it. There's a little noise around it, but not a lot. And then there are other companies that we have access to. It's like they don't even know that there's AI out there. It's like, hello, hello. Um, they're just living in the past and kind of um not thriving, not not growing significantly. So, anyway, my job in the lead in 30 podcast is to give you in less than 30 minutes something to think about. I hope I've done that in this episode.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

Share this episode with a colleague, your team, or a friend. Tap on the share button and text the link. Thanks for listening to the Lead in 30 podcast with Russell.